Friday 19 June 2020 20:37, UK
A review into and debate over whether 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' is appropriate for England Rugby is a chance to educate according to former internationals Maggie Alphonsi, Topsy Ojo and Will Greenwood.
Speaking exclusively to Sky Sports on a special episode of the Will Greenwood Podcast, the trio spoke with Sky Sports News presenter Mike Wedderburn on Thursday regarding the controversial rugby anthem, which has its roots in the American slave trade.
It is credited with being written by freed slave Wallace Willis back in the 1860s, and the story goes that the words sung by Willis were transcribed by a minister, before it was taken on by African American group The Jubilee Singers, who toured the world.
'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' then came to prominence again during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s in America, and was taken on in folk music too.
But in the current climate, it was announced on Thursday the song would be reviewed by the RFU.
An RFU spokesperson said: "The 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot' song has long been part of the culture of rugby and is sung by many who have no awareness of its origins or its sensitivities.
'We are reviewing its historical context and our role in educating fans to make informed decisions.'
Maggie Alphonsi, born and raised in London to Nigerian parents, picked up 74 caps for England between 2003 and 2014, becoming a Rugby World Cup winner in 2014 and is a current member of the RFU Council.
How does she react to news of the review?
"I think it's good the RFU are having a review, but I don't agree with it being banned," she said.
"It's a song that I grew up singing myself, I didn't know anything about the history of it and not until I was told did I stop singing the song.
"My attitude to it has always been that it doesn't sit easy with me, but at the same time I know people aren't singing it to offend, aren't singing it because they're racist and that most people don't know the history behind it.
"I think it's great that we're having these conversations and we're reviewing the history and origins of most things now. We're looking at songs, statues.
"But then I think it's important that people are empowered to make their own decisions. I don't think banning it will necessarily help people with regard to decisions they will make.
"I think educate, and let people go from there."
Ojo, who featured for London Irish and England in a professional career which spanned from 2005 to 2019, is also London-born to Nigerian parents.
If England supporters at Twickenham are not singing to offend, but are then educated and continue to sing 'Swing Low, Sweet Chariot', are they then offending?
"I think that's the discussion and probably where we are now," he says. "I think Maggie has hit the nail on the head in terms of the education around it - I'm included in that, I didn't know its origins.
"If I was on the pitch now and people started singing it tomorrow knowing where it comes from, would I feel comfortable - probably not.
"Again, you're asking people to think about it and make decisions, no one is enforcing a ban.
"Because it's being reviewed now I think a lot of people were shocked said: 'Oh they're going to ban it', but that's actually not what's been said.
"The RFU are doing this review to make a real stance against inequality and injustice, and this is part of it.
"So lets look at it with an open mind, open attitude, lets talk to people, educate and then we can make an informed decision.
"If we get to that point, then we're in a good place."
Sky Sports Rugby's Will Greenwood featured for England between 1997 and 2004, tasting Rugby World Cup glory in 2003.
Does he believe the RFU are in somewhat of a lose-lose situation regarding the song?
"I think it's an opportunity to educate," he said, mirroring the thoughts of Alphonsi and Ojo.
"What the RFU are trying now, far too late after 200 years of silence, is to open up the discussion that both Maggie and Topsy are talking about.
"To make sure there are educated decisions being made about this topic and that there is a representation of voices that allows a discussion to take place and gets to a conclusion where people are comfortable - and perhaps comfortable is a really poor choice of word considering what we're talking about."
In terms of education regarding the song, professor Josephine Wright, a professor of music and black studies and chair of Africana studies, has stated the song symbolised freedom for black Americans, was an alerting song on underground railways and a burial song signifying a release of the soul from human bondage.
The late Horace Clarence Boyer, a prominent scholar in African-American gospel music, says 'Swing Low' fits into a group of spirituals that say: 'I would rather die than be here', interpreting the chariot as coming forth to take the slaves home or to heaven.
In other words, such an interpretation is that the lyrics of the song spell out that life is so bad as a slave, death is the preferred option. Should such a song really still be sung?
"I think the best way to answer that is to ask whether I personally would sing the song, knowing what I know now. And I wouldn't join in," Greenwood says.
"Have I joined in it historically? Unquestionably at times, but there are also questionable gestures which go with it as well, and can be viewed as inappropriate.
"With the events of the last three weeks, you may ask: Well why am I only now paying attention to it? Has it been naivety, ignorance? It comes back to that implicit silence.
"So my view on it is I want to educate myself as much as possible, learn as much about the topic as I possibly can, and before a collective Twickenham decision takes place, my personal viewpoint would be not to sing the song."
And what about for Ojo, would he sing the song within the stands of Twickenham?
"No I wouldn't, being perfectly honest," he says.
"This last period has been quite a big awakening for me as well. I've probably learnt more than I ever have about black history.
"It's got to a stage now where enough is enough, and we need to have these conversations.
"This story has been in the press in bits and parts over the last couple of years and it's come to a head now where we're actively discussing it, having these uncomfortable conversations.
"It's something that's been sung at Twickenham for 30 years and people don't want that disturbed, but we have to. We're talking about something really powerful.
"And I wouldn't sing it, I wouldn't be a part of it."
As a member of the current RFU Council, Alphonsi has stated a desire to ultimately become president of the RFU.
Were she to claim that position and be in the crowd at Twickenham and fans began to sing the song, how would she feel? And how would she react?
"I would feel disappointed by that," Alphonsi says.
"If I was president, I would not encourage it being banned, I still stick by that. I would work really hard with the RFU about telling the story, and if anything it would be about reframing the story.
"I think it's more powerful to empower people than to stop them.
"The RFU are trying really hard to improve diversity and inclusion, and discussions that are going on now, they would do anything to try and support it.
"I would find ways of communicating with our members and understand why are they singing it, and what would allow them to feel comfortable not singing it."
Yet, within the higher echelons of the sport in this country, there are no BAME (Black, Asian, and minority ethnic) members on the 14-strong RFU board, while out of the 55 RFU Council members, Alphonsi is the only BAME representative.
Is such a situation not one of intense isolation?
"For me to be the only BAME person on the council one would say it's lonely but actually I feel quite empowered," Alphonsi says.
"The council are very welcoming, and at the same time my job on the council is to ask those challenging questions, to make sure I have conversations and work to get people onside.
"I don't want to be on the outside throwing stones in, I want to be on the inside trying to create that change.
"I really feel now there's a momentum shift where people want to be part of the change rather than the problem.
"If the RFU went down the route of banning it, what will happen is you will just get so much resistance - I know you will.
"The song has been woven into the fabric about what rugby is in England, and there are a lot of people who will be mixed by this reaction to the song.
"Some people will actually take the education on and say: 'Fine, I'm not going to sing it,' but some will go: 'I've been singing it forever, don't be offended, stop being a snowflake,' which I've already had sent to me in abusive tweets and messages from lots of people.
"And there are others who will say: 'Thanks for allowing me to reflect on it, I will take this away and think about it.'
"The RFU can not ban it and be seen as supporting the song, or ban it and then be seen as silencing the people. It's a difficult one.
"My stance is that it shouldn't be banned, but this is a discussion we will have in a week's time after the review has happened."
Lastly, is change going to come?
"Yes, it will," Ojo says. "It might take time but I think we've hit a watershed moment now where it is full steam ahead.
"The time to stay silent is gone now and I think people are encouraged by more people speaking up and the voice that has so long fallen on deaf ears or hasn't said anything to avoid being seen as disruptive or causing trouble, actually is no longer alone on this.
"There is enough of us now, and we've got allies to really want to make positive change, so I hope and pray that change is coming, yes."
Greenwood adds: "I believe so. I was brought up understanding that none of us is as good as all of us.
"And there's a stark realisation that rugby is going to hurt, but you can get through that pain.
"Historically we've been getting through that pain with a very small cross-section of the demographic, but the whole togetherness now will be a real point of change."
Alphonsi says: "Yes I do believe [change is coming]. To echo both Will and Topsy, for me it's about coming together.
"I need to be clear. It's not a black vs white thing, it's not an us vs them, the only way we will create change is if we all do this together and all have a part to play.
"It's not just our sport that is being reviewed, the government are looking to make changes as well and other sports are in their governance too.
"But what I hope is that rugby leads the way for other sports to follow.
"What's great is that having these conversations encourages us to want to be part of this change."
